In this episode, I’m speaking to Sufian Sadiq about being a Muslim in Britain, his experience of Islamophobia, and his reaction to the current situation in the Middle East and how it is being handled in British society.
In this episode, I’m speaking to Sufian Sadiq about being a Muslim in Britain, his experience of Islamophobia, and his reaction to the current situation in the Middle East and how it is being handled in British society.
Sufian Sadiq is Director of Talent and Teaching School at Chiltern Learning Trust.
Find him on LinkedIn https://uk.linkedin.com/in/sufian-sadiq-61b2b654
Sign up for our weekly email series, Strategy Sundays. Emails go out every Sunday, offering you the chance to get to grips with one tangible piece of change around equity in your organisation. You can sign up here https://beingluminary.myflodesk.com/mnl0u3o8gd
Nothing Without Us is presented by Angie Browne from Being Luminary. It is produced by Emily Crosby Media.
Sufian Sadiq 00:01
If you're a Muslim right now in Britain it's pretty confusing. And if you're an educator it's hurting.
Angie Browne 00:11
You are listening to Nothing Without Us, a podcast for the equity committed and the equity curious for the leaders and shakers who have dreamed a world and in that world equity is a tangible reality. I'm Angie Browne, an equity strategist with over 20 years in the field. And each week, I will guide you through topics and conversations that touch on equity, fairness, ethics and social justice. In every episode, you'll have the chance to get equity conscious.
Angie Browne 00:41
Okay, welcome back to the podcast. I'm delighted to have a I'm gonna call him friend, a colleague across the education sector with me today for this conversation, Sufian, and welcome to the podcast. I'm really, really glad to be having this conversation with you today. Would you like to introduce yourself to our audience?
Sufian Sadiq 01:03
Thank you very much, Angie. And thank you very much for the opportunity to be on the podcast and really excited. I love the idea of being on a podcast. I've never really been on many so so it's surprisingly exciting every time I get asked to be on a podcast. So my name is Sufian Sadiq. I'm a British Muslim. I'm an educator within the Bedfordshire area, I look after the teaching schools or work for children learning trust. And I started with where I was just as I was introducing me because I thought it was more important because I normally say my name is Sufian Sadiq director at children learning trust. I often think sometimes you forget, there's more to as a person and my faith aspect, especially as a British because the assumption is might be from abroad, because I look like I'm from abroad. But the faith part for me is what is my identity, first and foremost, and drives so much of what I do, but I have the good fortune of working in education, doing great things, in the most amazing part of Britain, a place called Luton.
Angie Browne 02:15
Thank you so much. So it's always going to be celebrating Luton, if there's one thing I've learned about you through social media is that you're always celebrating the community that you work in and that you and that you serve. There are a few things already this happens. Every time I do a podcast interview, somebody introduces themselves and I find within the first 30 seconds of what they've said is all the content that we needed to talk about. So first of all, I think there are there are a couple of things about your introduction. So you describe yourself as a British Muslim. And, of course, Britain has had a Muslim community for many, many hundreds of years. So really, really helpful that you kind of set out set that out. Can you tell me about your family? Where are you all located, your family, in Britain?
Sufian Sadiq 02:59
So we are a migrant family from Kashmir. So my parents are both of my parents are from the India side. Before the 1947 partitions, and both were refugees into Pakistan, during the partition, my dad is from Kashmir. And that's quite significant because when people talk about Pakistani community in the UK, often they misunderstand that a mainland Pakistan to Kashmir Kashmir is still a disputed territory half of Kashmir is still under occupied Indian forces. People are living under its really difficult times. We still have links to family again, who we were split from. On that side. My mum was from Lahore. So my dad come from a mountainous area. And my my mum comes from more of it educated families and my dad had never learned to read or write or never been schooled. We came here, like most Pakistani families migrated in the 70s. And ever since being in Luton, my parents have worked like again, most migrant families in restaurants and as taxi drivers, very common within the Pakistani community. And so we are all still here in Luton by by majority and as is with families and communities that came over so there's a certain part of Kashmir. All of the families are in Birmingham. Yeah, because the network's from in Kashmir. They wanted to keep those networks so one family went over and then the other family also went to Birmingham. And then in less than Bradford, you have similar geographical aspects of where people are from in Kashmir and where they want to get into the UK, whether they went to the textiles up north, or whether they came down south and worked in places like Vauxhall, yeah, and the factories where a lot of people came. Now my family is quite split, my siblings have flown around the world, several siblings in Qatar, we were just talking before in Doha, I've got a brother in Doha, a sister in Doha. I've got a sister in Riyadh, in Saudi, and some of the rest of the family is here in Luton. I'm blessed with two children. So a seven year old and an eight year old, that keep me very busy.
Angie Browne 05:47
I love seventh and eighth year, I always think that 7/8/9 Now my son is nearly 10, I always think every age is the best age, but it's a really, that's a really good time to be,
Sufian Sadiq 05:57
I find it really challenging because it's everything you learn, and everything I preach about over one, like parenting courses, and all sorts of stuff. And then I have zero ability to reply in my own life, like, it's a constant struggle. Like, I run the behaviour in the region, now we talk about behaviours, standards, and like just trying to sort them out in the morning to get them in a car. Okay, I'm struggling. So their challenge, and I'm growing and learning each day.
Angie Browne 06:38
Yeah, I hear you. So thanks for telling me about your family. I think it's really interesting. There's a couple of things there even that I that I'd like to talk a bit more about. But without ageing yourself, too. I never want to ask somebody their age. But I'm really interested about the impact of Islamophobia at different points, through the lens of school attainment is how I got interested in this. And I was reading that there hadn't ever been any wide scale monitoring of attainment in the UK on the basis of religion, or faith, there's often race made by kind of proxies of religion and vice versa. So there isn't actually a kind of attainment, attainment records for, let's say, for Muslim children. And therefore, when something like the September 11 attacks happen, there wasn't any anything made of the impact that something like the Islamophobia that was presenting itself at that period would have on the attainment and achievement of children who also identified as Muslim. Were you around schools without ageing yourself? Again, the point at that sort of point, because I'm really interested in that, you know, whether you see any correlation there.
Sufian Sadiq 07:48
I was didn't remember, clearly I was a college student at the time. I'm 9439 years old, okay. And think 911, seven, seven word game changes. For Muslims. Things were difficult. At the time, when I went to go on to do my PGCE. When I went to do my degree at the real sense of being different stood out then. Because if you're in a community like Luton, sometimes you lose a sense of what it means to be a minority at times you go to a primary school, that red the vast majority of children are also from a Pakistani, Kashmiri background, you then go to high school, and so almost 99% there, and you look at Ian in your class and think life must be difficult for an ethnic minority in and you have no sense because they tell you the concept of what it means to be a minority. But you're also from an extremely poor background. And therefore, you've not gone out to London on days out, you've not been around to the national parks, and you've not been to the Lake District or Cornwall, you've never been on holiday. So come 21 I've still not been on holiday. So my sense of the world. And the population in the UK, being a minority in the UK, only really came to realisation going to university being in London. So I lived out for a year in London, did my first year of my university in Westminster. And there was aspects of that that were difficult. You realise that 9/11 spillover was still carrying on. So I came as someone who's almost found my faith and a closer relationship with faith during my years in university. Also, you then found yourself with this identity of I am Muslim so I decided to grow a beard. And I look different. And you realise people see that you look different. And people make remarks and comments and throw things, say things and do things. And that was kind of the concept of a the first time I was ever attacked, JR University and remember, somebody hit a road cone across the back of my head, and I hadn't seen it coming obviously at the back of my head, but they whacked me outside Kings Cross and I remember that experience. But I also remember experience of going at the end of a Chelsea game up one of the tube stations, and just people chimed in abuse on mass. And that was then and then a few years later, when I went on to do my PGCE, I went to a community that was quite close to where I am in Luton, were very different demographically. And then experiencing abuse from children. Like, again, that was pretty difficult because abuse from adults looks very different. You became accustomed to that, as I progressed in my career, how adults and help professional adults abused you in ways that are very different to when someone's shouting the P word in a corridor, or children while you're in the canteen, as probably a 21/22 year old training. People come in making jokes about ham and bacon, and you suddenly realise what it means to be different. You also realise people shouting Osama bin Laden 's name constantly at you and those experiences, but it made me realise the impact that things like 911 had on young people, especially young people, I always think about what it must have been like not being in Luton, Bradford, Leicester, Birmingham, London. Imagine being the child of a Bangladeshi restaurant owner in Cornwall. And you went to a local school there, what would it have been like there? And those experiences I think, I do think would have been really difficult because I only experienced it a few years ago. Yeah, but straight after 9/11. For those in schools, in communities where they were distinct minority would have been really challenging.
Angie Browne 12:38
I'm really pleased that you that you kind of see said that because I had a conversation. This is what this ongoing I think I've been thinking about it for the last 18 months or so I had a conversation with somebody who was who was in school in year seven, right after 9/11. And he he was talking about the fact that he was in a in a minority in his school. But also he was it was the first opportunity that he really felt in year seven, to explore his faith identity and immediately felt he can't explore his faith identity because it isn't safe to so there was that really interested me that five to 10 year period of how we're tracking student attainment achievement for those children who couldn't, as you say, bring the most important one of the most important aspects of their identity to the school, which was their religious identity. And to go back to your introduction, where you talked about your religious identity of I'd really I'm just really interested to hear about that. You know how you see that?
Sufian Sadiq 13:36
The religious identities is interesting. You say that because I went to a boys school, the vast majority of boys were Pakistani boys. And there was lots about like, there's black Caribbean boys and Pakistani boys under achievement. It was just like, kind of drilled that Pakistani boys underachieve and you keep telling people you keep telling people that my genuine belief that you're telling young Caribbean boys that they're going to try and achieve Well, guess what? You're the person that setting that ceiling there by reminding them of the fact that they will underachieve. And it's funny because I've grown as an adults tracking that and the evidence was there of Pakistani boys, underachieving and probably fairly so as a newly migrant community into our country, poverty, disadvantage, adapting to language, ie, all of those factors. And then now, I find people saying, well, you can't compare us to that school because that schools got all Pakistani Asian children, and that's why they perform well. And it's like, Wait, how we got to this? And also, how is it that we don't talk about that? So you look at the top 10 schools in the country for PA schools. We shouldn't be talking about the fact that the group that we were seeing was highly underperforming, if you now look at the makeup of the top 10 schools, I think from the PA table this year, seven out of 10, I think were faith schools. Five out of the 10, I think were Muslim faith schools and the other couple of schools that were non faith, we're including a very prominent, very controversial school that's performing incredibly well, statistically, that tried to disassociate itself with faith. But the children in that school predominantly associate with the Islamic faith, the children on the other schools that are non faith, also Islamic schools. So these high performing schools are Muslim schools, this idea and this notion that is perpetuated and pushed that ethnic minorities, non Christians just tend to perform really poorly. And nonrigid. More specifically, we have an understanding that Hindus and Indians performed really well in academia. But we've got this notion that Pakistan is Bangladesh is from the Muslim community perform really poorly. And tracking that data. I think it's really important that tracking it back, like you said, to that era would be really important to understand the impact that things like 911 and seven, seven, yeah, would have had on children and their performance. Yeah, clearly, they've got the ability. I don't think a huge amounts changed. Yeah, we were made to believe, just like the black Caribbean community was made to believe in the same is that they just this subgroup of humans that are just not as bright as the rest of the humans in that rat race.
Angie Browne 16:47
Yeah. 100%. And I think that that is, that is kind of talks to the fact that in the UK, and certainly in schools, what I witnessed in this work is that there were nine protected characteristics, but little is made of faith identity, as it's as though that isn't, it's kind of protected, but it isn't really protected. And that we therefore underplay the significance of religious identity in human beings flourishing. So if if a child is forced to underplay the nature of their faith identity, that they cannot actually experience full thriving in an institution like a school .
Sufian Sadiq 17:23
100% And the fact that we don't focus on that characteristic, also opens a doorway for what we've seen in the rise of Islamophobia is because actually, we're not going to talk about the faith as being protected. This is the unprotected characteristic at the moment, because it's fair game. And it has been fair game since 911. If you're a Muslim, it's been fair game, to have your faith bashed, and to be scrutinised to be judged for your identity, because of the actions of a select few, that so called association with your faith. Now, we don't apply the same logic of major, major acts of genocide, acts of terror, convicted over the history, even the same period of history by other faiths. Yeah, but we associate a particular act to a particular faith. And the argument again, then turns into whether it was meant did it whether the faith inspired it or not, but again, you'll see other faith groups, other x, terrorist organisations saying they've been inspired by the faith, but we just never talked about it. Yeah. So it's been it has been something that's had a negative impact on communities in the UK.
Angie Browne 18:53
Yeah, thank you. And I told you, I was gonna get stuck on your introduction. But there's one other thing that you said about your your family and family members who are living in the Middle East. One of the things that struck me this week, I was at a conference in the Middle East and I met lots and lots of in comparison to the people I usually meet in the UK, numbers of British Muslim educators who were now working in the Middle East and were head teachers and were well they were all head teachers, in fact, and I was really interested, I'm interested in your perspective on on that move and why British Muslims would choose to go and work in the Middle East, I mean, other than the weather?
Sufian Sadiq 19:28
there is a, I would say almost a mass migration to an extent. Life in Britain is pretty difficult. Being a Muslim. To be able to talk about your identity is difficult to be able to express your identity and express forms, going to bed wearing a job when a buyer when and carb are increasingly becoming more difficult. The scrutiny on how women dress I choose to dress. Bizarrely kind of we've got into this notion that we want to protect women's rights by stopping them wanting to wearing a hijab by choice. And we've seen it in France, we've seen spillover of that politics coming in to the United Kingdom. The toxicity of the politics in the last couple of years, is getting increasingly more and more targeted more and more cold hearted and quite cutting in the way that we addressed Muslims and Muslim communities. laws being passed, we had a sequencing of laws being passed that clearly targeted disproportionately the Muslim community, further reinforced by more talk about even just the democratic. So the idea was a few years ago, that you're not British enough. And to be British, it's got to be about following the British values and British values are underpinned by democracy. And democracy is to be able to speak the freedom of speech, to be able to stand for things in during the day in doing so doing it in the right manner, that the law and the country has always enshrined and done. So things like protests, and now suddenly being banned. People are talking about stopping people, even having an opinion towards the safety, the sanctity of life, the humanity and know nothing else. Just why are you saying that this shouldn't be the sanctity of life, and humanity should prevail, and we should care for one another. That shouldn't be happening. And when you're thinking of yourself, as a father of a seven and eight year old, and you're thinking of the political cycles, and you're thinking, we will probably see a change of government, the change of government, we possibly might see the traditional left, where the ethnic manner is traditionally, if you look at where, especially with the black communities, well with the Asian communities were they voted a particular way for a particular party because it was left leaning, and that gave them a home, a political home where somebody is going to stand for our people, and stand for the rights of those that feel trodden on at times. But the left's shift to the right and the right shifted further, right. And therefore, when this cycle ends, you see no hope in the change. So there's no imminent hope in what's coming. There's no real talk about taking Islamophobia seriously, protecting the rights of those people with faces seriously. There's no talk about protecting innocent people from genocidal activities internationally from the alternative party. And then when you're thinking about the cycle, the chances are, you're seeing ousted politicians that lost their positions, pushing really hardcore rhetoric now, really, fringe level rhetoric that we would have said, even 10 years ago, we would have said, that's the English defensively the British national poverty level of poverty. Yeah, that's now come into the mainstream. Yeah. Therefore, if you're a Muslim educator, and you're in one of those jobs, that allows you to get out. We're thinking that actually life in Britain as a Muslim, unless there's some serious changes will be incredibly difficult. And our parents always said this. And almost every Pakistani can relate to this, and the Bangladeshi community can relate to this. And my dad always said, that you will get kicked out one day. This isn't a permanent permanent home. And he would always tell me, look at the Indians in Uganda. Look at this, look at that it can happen overnight. When you're in a community, and you don't belong in that community. They may decide that we've had enough and therefore I want you to have a link, I want you to learn the language. Do I want you to be able to read I want you to be able to write I want to buy a property do I want you to have a house the books you're gonna have to go back and as a child growing up through even through my 20s I always thought how bizarre a notion is that he's still hanging on and he's still getting the house work done in Pakistan, with the hope that when we get kicked out, we'll go back. Now. The reality is, it would be wise and prudent for people to check that they have some way to go. Because it will be very difficult and I feel like it Sad to say this, but a time will come where holding on to your faith will become virtually impossible to do so in a free manner where you can express yourself without prejudice, without conviction, and I think we've seen it happen in Europe, people being convicted for wearing the hijab. And we're probably not too far off that in the UK, unfortunately. And that, then you want to go somewhere where you can live, as you are as a human, and resist Middle East or anywhere else, I think people will be exploring options alternatively, abroad.
Angie Browne 25:46
Yeah, thank you for saying that. I mean, I just find it heartbreaking, for so many reasons. And I hope that people listening to this podcast also understand the significant ramifications that this has for a modern day, British, allegedly progressive society that people are leaving this because it in no way represents the kind of environment which many people who hold minoritized identities feel safe bringing their children up in. And I you know, I live in Denmark, because I didn't want to bring a black boy up in the British system and have him go to the British education system. And I think, this week being really struck by how many British Muslims are able to not live but thrive, but also are choosing to live leave the place that they were born, in order to have a life that really meets the requirements, as you say, the basic level of requirements needed to just have an identity and to be able to walk around with that identity. So it's, it's these very strange times that we're in. And you touched on some of what we were, we were due to talk about for the majority of this of this episode. But I'm glad we've talked about other things. There were two things actually there was the you mentioned a school. We had communication a few weeks ago about about the situation that was happening at the Makayla school where the head teacher of that school was, was being taken to court because she had taken the option to pray away from the students is my understanding of that of that case. I don't think there's been a ruling Yeah, on that on the on the lawfulness or not of that case. But that seemed to me to set the tone for a lot of what's happening in in schools or the conversation around faith in schools. I wonder if if we could sort of return to that, because I know you had some thoughts about that.
Sufian Sadiq 27:42
I think when you have things like that set in precedent, by law, that goes back, so prayer, if you are a Muslim, you must pray five times a day. And those who do not pray five times a day, do not fulfil their contractual requirement as such, when the Lord of being a qualified Muslim prayer is not optional. It's obligatory, it's an absolute fundamental part of your faith. Yeah. So I would want my children to get the very best education. And I want them to thrive, and I want them to succeed. I also acknowledge that some of these institutions provide very, very high quality education, the teaching the curriculum, the pedagogy is the practice, the rules, whatever discipline, whatever anybody's opinions are, that they provide these to a very, very high standard. And we now say, right, actually, the children come from this community. And we've also seen on that league table is also other schools, with a similar demographic also performing equally well. It just slightly behind and you're thinking, right, I would then say maybe a prayer aspect is a part of the fact that actually, with the wellbeing crisis we're facing in schools, every single school leader is saying, we're on our knees with the well being crisis around mental health of young people. So a young person suddenly finds and says, I want to do yoga or pilates. And we tell them about mindfulness. And we tell them about all of these ways you can look after themselves. But what we say is, but what you cannot do, is on your lunchtime in your lunch break, even on the playground, you must not put your head down to take a moment of solitude, contemplation and reflection and connection with your Lord. That for us is unacceptable, because your mental health is important. because not that important. These children were praying before they're not from families. A lot of those children, they're from Bangladeshi families, Somali families who are, is culturally build in everyone prays in their families, they pray collectively together, the children who used to pray, or we're going to strip that away from you. And then this idea that schools and faith should be separated with the Church of England we, that the model still deeply enshrined in religious authority and so on. It is a Christian country or isn't riddled? I don't know. I don't know, I'd like to think it is, I like to think is the kind of country that holds the fates quite dearly and deeply. And I think that part for me, is difficult, because that ruling only impacts one religious group. And that's the important part. As a Christian, it is not an absolute prerequisite that you have to pray at given times every single day, given slots, and they have a time restriction on the different prayers at the different times. Hinduism doesn't have it, Judaism doesn't have it. But Islam does have it. And therefore, actually, the ruling, and what we're trying to pass is for children, to be disassociated, and to start the process of splitting fate away from our children. And that part is scary. Yeah, both in where we're headed, but sad. One, what is doing for children, because I think to myself, those children have got those amazing results. We sometimes forget that. We always look at ourselves as educators as some sort of saviours. And we talk about how amazing we are. And we forget about the fact that amazing young people make us look amazing. Yeah, some of us only look amazing, because we have the good privilege of teaching some incredibly dynamic young people. And I didn't want a disservice to those kids that have worked so hard day in day out in those schools, educate so hard, and give the glory to those leaders and teachers to be able to stand tall and proud. Yeah, to stand tall and proud, and is really a sad, sad state of affairs, in my opinion.
Angie Browne 32:39
Yeah. Yeah, I completely agree. I think again, this this talks to the way that religious identity is sort of shaved off as though it doesn't really exist. And in actual fact, we don't give you know, you're talking about giving, not giving glory to the children, but also let's face it, to the families that they grow up in, and to the support that they have beyond schools that are also in their community support, like the support of their faith community. And I think we kind of roll in like, Oh, we've done all of the work, when in actual fact, there's a whole infrastructure there behind young people feeling that the work is work that they even want to do.
Sufian Sadiq 33:12
There's infrastructure, but also, I genuinely think if somebody was to do some sort of doctorate research, since we had a knowledge rich curriculum in the last government, the number of children from ethnic minority backgrounds, predominantly Muslim backgrounds perform incredibly well. A key aspect of the knowledge rich curriculum is no more and remember more. So the memory and recall is a massive part of this educational philosophy that we're pushing. But these children come from a tradition where they have to memorise a 500 page book, the Quran. Yeah. So memory for a lot of these children, is trained from a very young age, around memorization. Now, in other cultures, it's not common for children to be able to be seven or eight years old and recite 20 3040 pages by memory, but it is within our culture, and is within our community. And it has that helped schools I think it has I think that pure faith element, and Link has helped with the outcomes, because of the fact that actually, they have a memory advantage. I think, other children disassociating, it can be problematic. Yeah. But I would love to see the links made to it. The evidence to handle that
Angie Browne 34:38
it's got your name all over it, frankly, so I wouldn't move on a little because I'm conscious of time, but I really wanted to talk to you about the Middle East. And I wanted to talk to you about the Middle East in that this conversation and this series of conversations we're having for the podcast is sparked by my growing awareness. His very intense awareness right now that school leaders feel really compromised and having conversations about what is happening in the Middle East right now, as we speak, as this podcast is being recorded. In early March, we are witnessing war on Gaza. And it's the holy month of Ramadan. And we are seeing people who are not able to break their fast in their homes or with their families. I mean, it's, it's really some of the worst I've ever seen. And I wondered, I guess I wondered why it was that school leaders felt unable to talk about it and to bring their themselves to the conversation. But I also really wondered how, if we're not able to do that we can support children in our schools, who may want to have conversations about what's happening in the Middle East. And so that was my initial reason, really, for getting in touch. But But can I ask you first have you had how you have been processing I guess what's happening also in the recognition of your of your own identity and your faith identity, and you know what that relationship looks like?
Sufian Sadiq 36:12
I think I really struggled. I've not had it, I've been through, really, you could say comparatively a really difficult life of lost, loved ones lost lost siblings, seen some really traumatic stuff in people dying, and people have been stabbed to death. I've seen some horrific stuff in my life. And I'd probably say I've never seen myself emotionally as weak as I am at the moment, in the last couple of months. I cry a lot. And I'm not a person of Christ. But I cry a lot often alone in the car. I I genuinely think I'd probably have some degree of PTSD of some sort. Mainly, because in October half term, I was in Cata. And Tiktok, had just gone absolutely nuts with live streams and Facebook. There was a lot on Instagram called motors. Journalist out there. And then you're following the accounts every day, hour by hour, minute by minute. And it was painful, because unlike any previous war, that we may have experienced, just put a new twist and dynamic because you felt like you're there. Because in the Iraq War, in the Gulf War earlier, you relied on mainstream media, you relied on Nine O'Clock News, or the six o'clock news or the broadsheets for information, what's happening, what you didn't have is a person live recording a father for eight hours digging through the rubble, and screaming out the name of his child. And that stuck with me that that haunted me for days, because I could hear the kid's name. And I could just hear him and I could see this progressively. I saw the sweat on his body because you couldn't see the video. And he's getting dust here. He's getting sweat here. He's losing his voice because of how long he's been shouting for. He's running out of energy. He's not eaten. And he's struggling. You could see he's struggling physically out on. But it was the hope of a father who desperately despite knowing there's tonnes of debris and rubble over his child's body, he was in the hope that there will be flying. And that hope killed me. Knowing because you're objectively standing and saying, Stop, stop is not going to happen. Seen there's a little girl Kareem and the story of rim for me just just the love between rim and her grandfather, and how much he loved her and he used the word. She's the soul of my soul. And I've never heard the expression before. But he lives with me as the most powerful expression of love. The soul of my soul, and I think I think of case is like remote. They look at that lady the other day, who for 10 years tried for children and had twins and both of them died in her arms. Only a couple of months old and then you will follow another child in you watch another child, and I'm an educator, I committed my life to humanity. I don't just educate. I think I'm a humanitarian first. I'm probably on more than a dozen charitable boards around. Children all relate to children, all of the ready end beneficiaries about giving young people better opportunities. So when I wake up, I've got to understand I woke up, I became a humanitarian. Long time ago, maybe I never gave myself that label. But I'm more of a humanitarian than I am a teacher. And we're more about the sanctity of life and more about peace than I am about pedagogy. That's my day job. But actually, what I want kids to do is thrive on kids to smile. And when you yourself are struggling and suffering, when you yourself, don't know how to talk to anyone about it, and then you end up in this really awkward and really painful like, I'm, I feel like I'm very confident in and around myself and confident in my environment and confident with the people I'm mixed with.
Sufian Sadiq 41:17
And then this weird thing happened. And suddenly, like Gaza happened, and we had our political powers, making statements. That was just horrific. And then you think you're sitting there thinking, but we're all we're all against? On we are we? We all agree? No. It's the only me is there only me is complex. People say it's complex is difficult, is the truth by impartiality. I don't care. If two people are having a fight outside, and one person's on the floor, getting kicked, I don't even care at that stage, whether I know the context of him getting a kicking outside. I'm a humanitarian, I'm going to stop it on it help him because he's down. And that's enough, stop this idea that we then found ourselves in off the back of a championing and rightful championing of the people of Ukraine, something that made me proud of being British, something that made me proud of belonging to a nation that absolutely stood up in arms, people said, We opening our houses outdoors, and it became a real middle class thing to do. Like if you've got an extra bedroom, like you must be rich, bring in a refugee. And that's right. We're bringing in refugees. And I thought to myself, there's hope. We have the same people that saw a couple of years ago kid with his head buried in sand on our on shores. We didn't blink an eye every day, 3040 people die of dinghies of our course, and we don't care. But there was hope Ukraine gave us hope. Because Ukraine gave us hope that when there's an illegal annexation, an occupying force, using disproportionate power on people, civilians, children, mothers, that are not fighting in that war against them. We said that's not good. And that's that's bad. That's evil. And we decided to label the leader of that country, evil, the country and its actions even. And we will raise flags and wave flags. And we will do it on our council walls, up and down the country. And we'll do it in Big Ben, and we'll project big images of the blue and yellow, because that was the right thing to do. Because that's what good humans do. That's what good leaders do. That's a good people doing good communities do when people when there's injustice against whoever, you stand up, and you stand on the side of what is just and what is right now children raised money, and they had assemblies in schools, and they had badges in schools and they wore badges with pride. And then those same children. So a repeat, but a repeat of what's happened, but on steroids like we've never seen before. On absolute maniac level, genocidal level. We're just seeing kids in a strip of 28 miles, not bigger than 28 miles, not even a country, a 28 mile strip being absolutely bombarded indiscriminately and refugee camps being bombed. Churches been bombed, mosques being bombed schools was being bombed, ambulances being bombed hospitals being bombed? And you are now reflecting that. And you're saying, Why is everyone saying it's complex? Why am I getting letters from local authority? Saying, we've got the need to be impartial? Why have people that I work with I know so much and know so well, people want value so much? Why is everyone going quiet? Why am I not hearing anything from anyone? And that feeling is the feeling of every Muslim educator in the country at the moment, is bewildering to think like, how did we go from this to this so quickly? Because the value of life for the Muslim and the value of life for the one that looks different from them, as when I say them, I've seen the people who do not look European have a lesser value. Yeah, this is the only thing that's being played out here. That European lives, why British lives carry significantly more weight in the currency exchange market of life, that some lights don't matter. And we've lost probably 100 Plus primary schools, equivalent number of children. We're not batting an eyelid. We're not allowing a big sin. We're not allowing flag to be raised. We're sending children home because they got little badges on we don't do that anymore. If you're that child, how confusing. How confusing because you go home and your family is praying and your parents are crying, watching the telly you're watching tick tock or Instagram, listening to notices experiences, and you are seeing them as a child. And then you're told keep your faith to yourself. Everything we came to in British values, and suddenly we lost our values. Because we don't we laminate them. We didn't live. We did the justice is gone. The equality democracy, we don't want people to even protest. We want we don't want people to talk to the elected members. Don't follow the rules of democracy of change. If you're a Muslim, right now in Britain, is pretty confusing. And if you're an educator is hurting, yeah, it hurts. And I can't explain it. The silence of people, silence is never cut me, like is cut me on this one. And I asked myself, I always thought during the apartheid, there would have been people, good people in the regime in South Africa. That said, I'm not a bad human. But because the government doesn't allow us to stand shoulder to shoulder with the black people. I can't do it, even though I don't believe I believe black people equal to me, but I can't do it. And that's fine. That's fine during when Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King were fighting for it, there would have been people on a bus that would have said I'm okay with a black person sitting next to me. But I can't because that's not the rule. But why realise this? I don't want to be I want to be Rosa Parks. I don't want to be mindful King, Minister Mandela. I don't want to be that guy who sat back knowing that a black person shouldn't sit next to me because I want to follow a rule that is inhumane, unjust goes against humanity and everything that we know to be true as good humans. Now I'm going to stand up because that person is black, they can sit next to me on the bus. There's no point saying it is late and there's no point adorning Martin Luther King on your walls and Gandhi on your walls and Rosa Parks on your walls. For what if Rosa Parks stood up and spoke today, she'd be on a prevent warning by a local authority coordinator because she's saying that she's speaking up against what is the government's view and the government view we know Barclays and their role in the apartheid. And we know that the great genes at the time, Nelson Mandela was called a terrorist by the British Parliament British regime. We call him a terrorist. So we thought Malcolm was the same. We thought the same of Martin Luther King. And and what we're forgetting is we say, lest we forget, and never again, and we repeat it, and we repeat it and we stand back and we say, when justice in injustice, I don't even expect us to do anything. I don't want us to even get involved. Even if we don't call for a ceasefire. Fine. But when you say something wrong is right. And when you fail to call out injustice, yeah, that's when you lose people. That's when you lose. That's when people have to decide with the moral compass, that I know that's wrong. And you're telling me Wrong is Right. And I'm not going to allow that. And I think telling people wrong is right, and telling people those that will speak up with what is right. It, don't talk, and that's fine. So Muslims in the sector have lost their voice. And they hurt in there in heart ache. And more fearfully and stressfully. I think about the children just cannot process or understand this, because the absence and disconnect will make them disenfranchised and disenchanted from establishment and the system, which we've actually worked so hard to make sure that that doesn't happen.
Angie Browne 51:00
Yeah. Yeah. It's just, I'm so appreciative of you saying that and giving voice to what your experiences and I think that the point that you're making about this absolute disconnect between the experiences that some communities have had rightly had, as a consequence of war, as a consequence of displacement. And this experience is, is is is really, really difficult for people to process I think about the Somali communities in the schools that I've worked in, where they were not invited into people's houses, no spare room was made available for them. During any displacement, no bake sale was had no charitable movement took place in the school, I wonder how they look upon the difference in the ways that they are treated, and the way that other communities are treated other more European communities are treated when they go through similar experiences. And I think you've articulated very clearly the absolute hurt and confusion that there is among so many people as to why this is being treated with silence. Why this? Why this reading what has been met with with silence in so many quarters, but particularly in a site, where we should be doing the education where we should be the site for exploration for I'm confused about four, can I give voice to in the work that you do? I know that you have a lot of groups that you are a part of, and I know that you work in your community and lots of different ways. But are there any groups specifically that you work with or any support that you are aware of for teachers, for educators, who also identify as Muslim to go towards? Is there any kind of other you know, if if schools are not going to be the place where people can feel safe to talk about how they are doing even right now? Do you know of any other spaces for that?
Sufian Sadiq 53:01
We've recently gone into a launcher session for an organisation in Luton called Faces faced against child sexual exploitation. So that will be set up as a result of all of the grooming gang issues, a some of the misreport in but be the lack of education that existed around identifying victims, perpetrators advocating for victims, advocating for the families of victims. So it's a great organisation, but it's it's champions base, for those that have no voice. And I think the part for us, we had a teachers network two weeks ago, a teachers network to talk about a safe space to talk about how they feel with regards to the ongoing conflict. It was deeply moving, but also reassuring that other people felt the same way. Diverse ed. I know, I've been in touch with them. They're organising something, I think, probably a chance of April could be wrong, but do check the divers at website but again, as a space for Muslims to talk about their experiences in relation to the conflict, because there's an understanding that the conflict is having a significant impact on people's mental health. Yeah. I said you come on our podcast and say to you, I'm struggling with my mental health, yes and no requires it. I wouldn't say if I wasn't in a bad place. But I'm, I'm happy in a bad place in one way.
Angie Browne 54:51
We should be in a bad place. Right? We should be. We cannot look at what's happening in Gaza and not be in a bad place.
Sufian Sadiq 54:57
And that's the thing that I hold on. When I think to myself, the danger is, I could be someone that sees what's happening, and not feel bad. And I think to myself, how disheartening could it be to be an educator and to be a teacher and not care about children, whether they're in Ukraine, whether they're Israel, whether they are hostages, whether they're children killed in Gaza? How can we disconnect ourselves from the hurt indiscriminate killing, and torture of children, if that's the baseline, forget connecting with adults or anyone else, if our life is about serving young people, arbitrary mechanisms, it's things like passports, and your where you live in your nationality. A child is a child, a child isn't born. As a national, you've got to get registered, and you've got to get all of this stuff done. A child is a child. And when we don't start seeing children as children, it's scary. And I rather a rather cry, a rather hurt. Because in my weakest form, the only thing I can do is pray. Even speaking on social media, unfortunately, is risky business. Because calling out injustice leads to be a victim of injustice. Yeah, when what reigns supreme is injustice. So you've got to stay quiet, you can only say so much.
Angie Browne 56:43
Sufian, thank you so much for saying everything that you've said. And I'm, I really appreciate your that level of openness and vulnerability, also, because I think it helps other people. It helps normalise the experience for other people. And I certainly would want you to know and everybody to know that I share in the tears every day in the sheer horror of what I'm witnessing, I don't know anyone who who who can't. We're going to try and share some, some support networks in the notes, the show notes for this show. And I'm also going to share your I know you're not so much on the social media these these days currently. But I will say I will share contact your your contacts on LinkedIn with people listening. And I just thank you so much for having this conversation. It feels like the beginning of a many conversations that we could have. I'm taking from this conversation, a great solemnity almost about what it means to hold a Muslim faith identity in particular in this country in these times. And I really hope people listening here, the seriousness with which we need to be taking this, because we have many, many, many young people in our schools who need it to be taken seriously. So thank you so much for your time. Thanks for Thanks for joining me,
Sufian Sadiq 58:13
Thank you very much for the opportunity. And as I say the faith part for me, my faith prescribes that the nature of the work we do as educators, by default makes it worship that if you're educating people, that is the rewards of educating the same as you spending that time in solitude in worship, and I see that every day. I take my work as worship and a worship with heart and soul. While give to my work and that's come from my faith has not come from Me. It's inspired by my faith and faith is only made me better as a teacher as educated as it has for many others never detracted me or taken me away from being better. So if there's anything you take away, I hope you take that away.
Angie Browne 59:04
Thank you. Thank you so much. Take care.
Angie Browne 59:09
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Angie Browne 59:29
This episode was presented by me Angie Browne. The series is produced by Emily Crosby Media.